Early wedding photo

[HPL2008]

Moreover, there was also a leadership school for the Allgemeine SS at Dachau, was there not?

Indeed, there was:

The SS Dienstalterliste of 1944 for the rank of Obersturmbannfuehrer and above has been reprinted, I think.

Yes, that's right. I am aware of (and own) reprints of the following SS-DALs:

- 1 Oct. 34
- 1 July 35
- 1 Dec. 36
- 1 Dec. 38 (with addendum as per 15 June 39)
- 1 Oct. 44 (Ostubaf. - Stubaf.)
- 9 Nov. 44 (Obstgruf. - Staf.)

as well as the Waffen-SS DAL of 1 July 44 (Ogruf. - Hstuf.).

[HPL2008]

Just as a side note, the second pattern death's head badge was introduced in 1933

Was it? Please don't get me wrong: I know that you are intimately familiar with the minutiae of SS insignia and will be the first one to admit that you are more knowledgeable about this subject than me, but all the standard references (e.g. Saris, Mollo, Lumsden, Beaver/Shea) list 1934 as the introduction date.

The cuffband is a rarely seen motorstaffel title from the
1934 period, (this would fit with the pre-October 1934 white piping on the collar patch). These cufftitles replaced the earlier spoked wheel cuffband.
At this time M3 was the motorised branch of foot regiment 31, 'Niederbayern' under 'Sued', and drew its personnel from the Regensburg and Straubing area. The Berlin location of 3. SS Motor Standarte under 'Ost' did not come into play until 1935.

You're right; I had totally missed the white piping.

I - and certainly other members, too - would be interested to learn more about the cuff titles worn by the ASS Motor Units; I had never heard of the "M-plus-Number" cuff titles for the Motorstaffeln and reference material on this branch is rather scarce and sometimes contradictory.

Thus, could you give us a quick overview of cuff titles they wore at the various periods?

Apart from general interest, there is one specific cuff title I hope to find out more about. The following image is composed from two details of a group photograph I own showing members of the 2nd Sturm, IIIrd Sturmbann, 35th Standarte:



They are wearing some kind of round (metal?) badge centered on their cuff titles. It is clearly not a sleeve diamond. From its round shape, I had always suspected it to be motoring-related; could this perhaps be a metal variation of the early "steering wheel" design?

[d'alquen]

HPL,
I know the reference books quote that date but interestingly without documentation as far as I know.
Here is an image of Schwarz at the the 1933 Nuremberg Rally wearing the second pattern skull. After seeing this I did find another couple of pictures that confirmed the date. I will try and find them.
d'alquen

[tampalam]

What a fascinating thread! I just learned more in these pages than if I had scoured the web for one day. Cochise, I hope you find all those answers you seek and tha you can share them with us. If you ever get the opportunity to photograph the rest of the items from your ancestor, please post them as well.

[d'alquen]

HPL,
Thank you for posting the very interesting photo. I have always presumed these titles were the early NSKK motoring diamonds with an eagle on a wheel. I think they either used just the metal badge, or in this case what looks like the diamond applied directly over the band. I think they predate the embroidered wheel band.
I will post more material tomorrow that you might find interesting.
d'alquen

[Friedrich-Berthold]

HPL,
I know the reference books quote that date but interestingly without documentation as far as I know.
Here is an image of Schwarz at the the 1933 Nuremberg Rally wearing the second pattern skull. After seeing this I did find another couple of pictures that confirmed the date. I will try and find them.
d'alquen

This image is from the 1st Riefenstahl film, Der Sieg des Glaubens, is it not? I imagine that Schwarz wore the badge as a kind of Probe. This image is September 1933, and were not innovations in regalia oriented to this event, that is, the Reichsparteitage?

A useful and informative thread.

[militarymania]

what is the band on this man's arm?,,surely it is not a SS sturm cuff band,,looks like the NSKK metal spoked wheel with eagle in metal on a cloth diamond on it,,,

[d'alquen]

Cochise,
Could you show a detailed scan of the diamond on the sleeve in your picture.
Thanks
d'alquen

[d'alquen]

HPL,
i have fished out a few old files as you requested. The earliest motoring order I have is from 1934 that states that the men in a motoring outfit were to wear a cuff band with a sliver grey embroidered wheel device. The collar patch bore the number of their unit together with an "M". At this date there were 30 motoring units and the pricelists from that period offer those tabs M1 to M30. Interestingly, the lists do not include a cufftitle.
Then there was a brief period when the cuffband featured the M plus number.
From 1935 onwards the cufftitle carried just the sturm number.
Interestingly I found a document from 1936, when the Motorstandarten were being re-organised, requesting that their cuffband adopt pink coloured edging. Nothing came of it.
After 1936 the collar patches were offered from M1 to M13, (up to M20 by 1939 after the anchluss).
Here is a picture of that first wheel cuff title.
Derek

[Doktor No]

Gunter, that answered several little questions that puzzled me about these Bands and makes perfect sense. I took the liberty of posting your photograph with the Twins.