Allgemine SS NCO Visor Hat, emblem looks off?

[damiani]

Hi, curious what your take is, it's 7 hours away so it's a long drive just want another set of eyes.

Few things that catch my eye are the rivet sizes and I can't really find any other emblems looking quite like that to match it to?


Thanks

[ErWeSa]

I think you can save your 7-hrs-trip. The tag (it would be a Clemens Wagner cap due to the # 4) seems fake as does the shape (and the fabric/weave) of the cap which doesn't match the early skull-insignia.
I personally would need better, in focus pictures from the exterior (how do the pipings join?) as well as from the interior (the "under the hood shots" showing how the lining is sewn in and the holes of the splints of the insignia etc.) to get a clearer image of this cap. Some parts look good but the overall impression from these pictures alone is not too good. Hopefully for you the specialists will contradict me.
Either this cap is a Frankenstein or the insignia + ev. the tag were "replaced".
For some early caps see here (Aldo, BTW, is THE specialist for sinsignia): Early SS Visor

[damiani]

Thank you for chiming in, couldn't find that early SS visor thread. Cheers

[Aldo]

Let me start by saying the obligatory detailed photo's are needed for a proper assessment. Straight on shots of the insignia, a complete shot of the interior and sweatband not just small sections, the piping as Wolfgang stated. I have no idea if the interior has the usual runes and celluloid sweatshield because the photo's are omitted

That being said from the limited photo's I believe the cap stands a good chance of being original. The insignia is meaningless in terms of dating a a cap because it is easily swapped out. The Trikot wool and general shape of the hat do not indicate an early model but something from 1938 or 1939 perhaps. I think the tag may be alright for a later cap like this but I'm not well versed in these as others are. I believe this is the second pattern of black labels from around 1938-1939 according to the sage of foetid woolens, F-B. I have a Clemens Wagner SS visor with the first type of black label instituted around 1937. Check the link below

Schwarze SS Tuchmütze, Clemens Wagner

SS RZM Tags

As for the insignia it's hard to tell because it's not straight on but it closely resembles this variant of Danziger skull some refer to it as the smiling danziger. There are two types that differ in the spacing of the teeth











The price on the cap should be commensurate with a stripped down version of an EM cap if it turns out to be authentic. It will require a minimum of 2k to replace the insignia with a second pattern eagle and skull. This is only my opinion based on limited photo's wait to see what others may have to say if you provide better photo's

[Aldo]

Here is an example of a similar cap formerly owned by member Bence Jones who is no longer active on the forum. Take note of the rzm tag. I think your cap is authentic and of the same era as this one

Assistance with Early SS Visor












This visor listed on WAF for nearly 8k last year to give you an idea of price range

[Tim030]

I agree with all I believe this does stand a chance of being a stripped 38 or later wagner. I also agree that a better look is needed. I believe it's worth a closer look depending on price.

Tim

[stonemint]

Agree, good cap.

[ErWeSa]

Thanks Aldo! What made me think was the dot after the 4 for Wagner on the RZM tag - first time I saw that. Learning never ends...

[Aldo]

I agree Wolfgang, the small 4 and dot threw me off at first but my archives told me otherwise. look at the variety of styles of the number four on all these Wagner caps

[Aldo]

I'm curious if you were able to secure the cap? If so I'd love to see additional photo's of the interior and the insignia