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Hi ShapedSteel,
No problem at all about the questions - I love looking at helmets and Militaria in general, so it’s no bother. Regarding the grommet rings, I’ve seen them in a few sizes but I’m not sure how they were fitted either. To remove them my guess would be to soften the leather then slide them out. I agree that the leather pads do have a lot of age to them which is in keeping with the leather liner band and could very well date from that period. To me they look well used and like you’ve said, it would be hard to achieve that type of natural looking wear, so I’ve no doubt they are old. I haven’t ever heard of Austrian helmet liners being used in German helmets during WW1, but I guess anything is possible, but begs the question of why remove the metal grommets?
Great to hear that the liner pin is good. Like I said, I have no issue the liner band being original to the helmet. It looked shiny from the photos but must have been glare. Fake pins are usually unpainted and have rounded tops which was how it appeared. You’ll notice an area around the rear of the shell and above the band that is dirty with a clean area just behind the band at the rear of the shell which makes it appear as though the band is too small. This is simply down to leather shrinkage over the years and is seen on many leather banded M16’s from the period.
I noticed the mark on the right hand side and wondered if the helmet may have been re-used early in the 30’s as a transitional helmet as there almost appears to be a shield like shape (albeit in the wrong spot). If this was the case it would have been repainted and mostly refitted with an early transitional liner like an M24 or later with an M31, and if this was the case the pins would be changed to TR type and the shell repainted. Also looks like there was nothing on the other side. It does make you wonder though about what would make someone mess with it or what exactly is going on.
My main interest in collecting is Imperial German WW1 helmets of which I’m continually studying and looking at examples as well as studying those in my collection and in reference works and some dedicated German WW1 helmet groups that I belong to, so I’m basing my judgment on those observations and seeing examples of Austrian liners with the grommets removed. To date, I haven’t seen any original German examples that leave those impressions in the tongues which is why I’ve drawn the conclusion. If I saw this helmet for sale and was assessing it, the liner would be the thing that stood out as a red flag, and part of the reason I’d notice is because when I first started collecting I missed the metal grommets a few times when looking at a helmet lol. Unfortunately I don’t have the helmet in hand, and I can only form a judgment on what I can see in the photos.
Andy
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09-04-2023 09:16 PM
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Thank you for the insightful message.
Anything could have happened with this helmet. It was being sold by a seller who also acquired a bunch of Austrian M17 police helmets (with the grenade badge) maybe there's a connection, but I'm not sure.
I also cannot help but wonder what made somebody mess with this helmet. You're right that there's a mark sort of in the shape of a shield on the right side, that was scratched off with paint thinners. I also don't think it's really possible for it to be a TR, as the helmet is completely in it's WW1 configuration. It would have surely been repainted, especially the name on the inside.
Maybe it saw civil service use in Austria, and whatever Austrian shield was on the right side was defaced by a seller thinking it would lower the value of the helmet and tried to remove it. This same person could have also been the one to remove the rings for the same reason.
On the other hand it could have been that there was a fake TR decal on the right side that was removed in a botched job, but I doubt somebody doing such a bad job at that would then be so incredibly skillful in attaching old M17 liner pads to the liner.
It's a curious case, and I seem to have a habit of running into these oddballs haha.
Speaking of imperial helmets. I have a collection of incredibly rare M16 helmets dropped in the Netherlands during the German retreat through Limburg. These have been refitted by the Dutch army in 1919 and then repurposed for civil guards ''Burgerwacht'' militia groups in the 20's and 30's. I have a lot to tell about these, and there's little to no information about these out there so I would like to share it on the forum. They're all fully original. In which forum do I post this thread once I do?
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Must admit I have never heard of these Burgerwacht militia groups and a search of the forum brings up practically no real mentions and certainly no helmets. I think they would be very interesting to see and might be best placed in the World Steel Helmets forum:
https://www.warrelics.eu/forum/world-steel-helmets/
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Blimey you're most 'mistreated' M-16 beats mine by a mile! Nice helmet!
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